WSIS TalkX

WSIS Forum 2019: Open Space TalkX on E-Health

March 23, 2020 WSIS TalkX Season 2019
WSIS TalkX
WSIS Forum 2019: Open Space TalkX on E-Health
Chapters
WSIS TalkX
WSIS Forum 2019: Open Space TalkX on E-Health
Mar 23, 2020 Season 2019
WSIS TalkX
Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
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spk_1:   0:05
everyone and welcome to another episode. Off with his talks. I am Rianna Walker and I will be leading today's podcast today. We're here to talk about health. And so I have with me Dr Nyla Siddiqui Kamar. He was a senior lecturer at Imperial College, London. Next we have Mr Yucatan A who is the founder and CEO of Healthy Strong. And we also have Tatiana, counselor Lee, who is the founder and CEO of the Open Health Network. Thank you all so much for coming today. It's pleasure having you on the podcast. So let's get started, then. The first question. I'm going to ask if if you could just tell us about your work will take it in turns on how this project came to be created. So, mister, you not

spk_3:   0:45
start, Okay, so health restaurant is start up. So it's a social network for an idea of the upside is to be a place where people share they have experience on connect with other people who have organ to sit to normal in the same selfish you. So the idea, the originals off oranges off. The idea was when I had an internship in company when they said software for medical laboratories. So when they go to make technical support, I over the patient shares sharing their stories and their families getting them. But they know someone who have been through the same sickness. And he is we're not. So basically, they're giving them away. So that day, I was if, uh, why hearing a story of a person, but you don't know why you just don't connect to the person who have been through the same hell fish. So I looked up in the Internet on there was only four apps just for, um, sending people with random names sharing stories. I'm not an enormously with All right, so the names on natori names. So I thought that meaning Social network for health reasons. So that is Facebook is where you connect with you with people who already know your friends and connects have for us to reconnect with strangers who have already isn't to run about the same health issue. Thank

spk_1:   2:25
you, Naina. You're going to you. Okay,

spk_2:   2:29
s so basically I'm a clinician. Um, I my specialty is guy knee cancer. Um, on I got in the world with the technical technological side of things because being an imperial, um, there is a lot of research, emphasis and focus and health care in this day and age is not the same as it used to be in the past. If I give you an example that there was a study done at Harvard which showed that in 1950 the amount of medical knowledge that was there in orderto for it to double would be 50 years in 2000. And then it was something like, you know, it would take seven years for the amount of knowledge that was present in medical education to double It was around, you know, it would take about seven years. The latest is that in 73 days the amount of knowledge that we have off medicine in order for it to double 87 it is 73 days, So you can imagine the amount of data amount of medical information that is out there. So without technology, it is impossible to practice medicine like it used to be in the traditional manner. So my, um, interest has brought me I went to Harvard to do ah course that info Matics. And that's where when I became more of a rare off how technology can help us. A clinician's look after our patients in the best people civil. So that's a kind of a summary off how I got mold. And what is the future off practicing medicine.

spk_1:   4:07
It's great name. And thank you so much on Tatiana. Thank you. Um, I usually start with asking a question. Um, both people do on get, then get they get diagnosed with cancer. And, um, some people who are crazy like I am after they stops planning the funeral, they started companies. So, um, I've done a lot of different things in the past. Have been under your close, many different industries. But when I got diagnosed with cancer, one of the questions for me as a technologist and as entrepreneur was by me. And then I realized that, uh, there is not enough integrated data sets that contained all the data across a every dimension that condemned accusation treatment in outcome of chronic diseases such as cancer. And I, uh, identified all the data sources So some of the data contained in electronic health records some of the data you can pull from open government sources such as this is data, environmental data, social economics. Then you realize that it was a gap where wouldn't have really good ways to connect with patients and get patient reported data That's not part of h. R. And that basically led me. Let the whole effort on creating configurable customizable platform was in depths a eye adapts of personalized elastic throwing your diseases that is used by large health care organizations to enable wth, um, the build patients under solution and through sends off it So patients actually use it has everything that they ever want to do in the one place uh, the personalized adaptive. And, uh, they maintainable an expandable a device and your language. You can pull data from a bow. Helga will killed verbal devices. You can deploy. I'd help you. They make sense out of data. Plus, we raised in offering patients fear, but now enables couple things it enables for patients don't have a full control of the health data. They can go on the data point by data point and great revocable concerned. Who can do what were they held? Either they also can publish that the identified metadata and they can be found E and rewarded by health care organizations for global wellness, for appearance to treatment for research and clinical trials. Um, so we've rolled out its deployed. We have amazing customer, such as medical cars Association. You say so, um, Cornell and many others, It's used across cardiovascular cancer. Ah, season addictions everywhere. And, uh, I think there are huge opportunities of getting in the global health and engage with people in underserved communities. A swell Thank you, Cynthia. Unthinking. Could I just add

spk_2:   7:46
on to that point? Because it's, ah, it actually connects to the theme that we have been promoting. So the reason why I, um I have come to this conference, which is basically a technol tech conference, and I'm a clinician. Um, because I have understood on I realized, like many of my other clinicians, that practicing medicine is no longer possible unless there is support from the tech industry. So, um, the the concept is that off smart cities Smart, rural, smart, urban, you know, You see, if you google that that's just the term. Lots of ideas come up. You know, people are defining the smart city or, you know, smart villages in many different rates. How I see it as a condition is that how do we, um, create an eco system? You know, people talk about connected hill Connected health is no longer the buzz word. It is a healthcare ecosystem where everything is connected and what you have just mentioned that at the center off it is, the patient is an individual. So when the ass clinicians historically, it would just be treating the disease. But we have to look at the person holistically. They have emotional intelligence, they have the health care issues. How do we match the two together? So things like what A U bes health rostrum? You know, offers is that people have a voice and they share their issues and they're creating a huge amount of data and they have the ownership of the data. They can be in charge where this data is being used from your facility on a solution. I can see that it's the personal journey that is being looked at, and the person has is m barred, especially when the patient is going through a difficult phase in their life. Similarly, I have another colleague who's got a solution where they use virtual, um, coaches. So it's not an avatar coach. It's actually a person. So I'm helping. It's in that HIV, but I'm helping them tow scale it toe cancer, especially going any cancer. Because that's my line.

spk_1:   10:00
Um, just still gand them that, um What, you you know, your position I've been on chose here is a patient caregiver and acknowledges for awhile. So what, you quickly realize that, um, the term patients under means different things to different people. Now, you know, I've been cancer patients. So if you will tell May as a cancer patient, here's your message. Board up here is enough to manage the medications. Here's the abs for something else. Cares, child. But without in here, will you measure? I was like, you must be kidding. So my goal waas a toe enable all of those things to be in the one place. Next Think you realized for many diseases people have more than one concession, of course. So you can tell them Oh, you have diabetes. Here's your diabetes thing. Uh, cholesterol. Oh, there isn't up for that. Yeah, that's not happening either. So you need to have a frame. Berg that you can adapt all those things within the same tremor. This smart going back to you point it has to have super advanced A I capabilities. Yes, that it can look at the HR data, for example, Intel physician. Well, your reservation similar that this here's what worked. Didn't hurt. Yes. So we build predictive modeling where we can predict, um, with 97% probability if the person will be moved to special care, you know, within a certain time frame, there are, you know, algorithm on position. So all that becomes really, really amazing. But we really need make sure we address all the needs of the patients, not perceive the no angle off Valya. So the thing that

spk_2:   12:09
is being very popular the time that is used in our health care um you know, diaspora is precision medicine, preventive medicine, predictive medicine. You know, these are new terms. On what? Because of the, you know, technological advances. For example, gene genomics in UK, there is a 1,000,000 genomics project. That means they took the gene coding off 1,000,000 patients quoted them, found out you know what particular diseases and illnesses and what particular circumstances and they've got a huge data which can, you know, help the clinicians. I say, if I have another patient has just been diagnosed with ovarian cancer. It's a rare type of ovarian cancer. I can go into that pool and find out. Okay. How many visions at this in the same age group? In the same ethnicity, You know, with the same background. What medicine worked on her? What blend? For a corner. So that will help. Maybe, rather than trial and editing on the patient, I can offer the solution straightaway. So this is really You know, it was almost like being in star track, you know? I don't know whether you remember. I'm really all know, But when I was young, um, star track in the first phase is off. It's, you know, form. Former used to be coming up with things like the mobile phone we use now. Then there was something going on, you know, be me up. Spoke? Yeah, Captain Cock, which they be me ox book. And now we have all aborting. So we are performing surgery in the UK with surgeons who are whole imported from America from India in the same theater, helping each other to perform an operation.

spk_1:   13:58
Yeah, and I'm sorry we haven't got conversation, but it was great. You know what you mentioned, Val? Genomics is great, but what? You quickly also realize that you can look att similar type of people? Yeah, Some of them believe some of them die. So community allies socioeconomics mental status. All of those things actually impact the outcome. So the for example, one of the things we've done for American Heart Association. They've deployed my car's a coach and it has, like everything that people need to manage from medication. Here is still lessons, assessments, data, But then business. The strong hypothesis linking mental, emotional, healthy heart disease. They added that so we will be ableto analyze data in secret relations and then help people know just the manager harnesses, but also emotional well being.

spk_3:   15:00
And so she said, when the nation is that they must So is this up this up, this stuff you need to do this and do that. That's why uh, in one off the ghost of her rest of me is to make people not only think about health from their sick, So even if you are well, aware you read articles. You know how people treat Genesis? What's worse in person than you trending? What's the president of something up Make connection? So it's ah Burton to make general population understand how how Oh, the new Afghan alker tech models are going right now. So it's not the who is so difficult for him to deal with this different kinds of being definitely specifically kind Venus.

spk_1:   16:05
Of course I agree. And I think so much progress and health is coming from being able to collect and analyze the vast amounts of data mean is magnificent, really. But how do you feel? I see t can help to get more data. Everything because we already have quite a lot, but from analyzing different areas with Ada. Do you think I know what you think? So, my friend data

spk_2:   16:26
in itself means nothing. I could have a huge amount of data, but if unless it is an ELISA ble on, it can give us some meaningful information that is important. So whenever any, um, you know, project is set up, the important thing is, OK, fine. You're going to collect data for what purpose and how you gonna use it. There's a whole argument about the ethics off, you know, Ah, data collection and how it is used. But I want to say one thing here before we actually, uh, you know, I might forget mentioning it that we have the luxury in a way, or we are blessed that we are living in societies which have these technologies which are almost like a luxury tow us right. But the vast amount of humanity is living in places which are not, you know, which are not, um, ableto have the same provisions. So whenever I'm looking at any project, I always look at it. How can I transfer this toe village somewhere in a remote place in the middle off? Let's say, Africa, South Asia, anywhere in the world where there is a population that needs it because somehow everyone has got a small not everyone. I mean, majority of people end up having a smartphone, even if they have the basic G, um, you know, system available. There's a lot that can be done. And, um, the the important thing is that how do we connect those people? And it's bespoke solutions for the local needs. If I have an excellent, you know, five star model of health care, and I try to take it to somewhere in the middle off my lobby. It's not going to serve their purpose. It might be a simple solution. Like a van with a telly. Health. You know, um, provisions, which is connected to a hospital somewhere. And you have expert advice even only being given toe a clinician who was working on their own that is going to make a massive

spk_1:   18:40
difference. Um, So, um, your good common status points and, um, on the day, the side, So we need to have data data has to be more or less good. The fine you think is that we had enough data. No one was looking at them. If you look at HR, systems have been providers tons of data no one was analyzing. So now they waking up this, trying to analyze off course you need not just those data sets all the other data sets and look att, structured, unstructured content and all of that now, and that is happening. I mean, if if all I can create a laundry list of Calgary's that we've developed the super accurate health physicians help researchers. That's great. So one of the data pieces that we need is to get data from people like they had surgeries and went home based on protocol that will come back in a week. No one knows what's happening in between. They might die or go through. We are somewhere else. In between. We have devices, we have everything we can help them to manage. But so that's the case of missing. But when we talk about people in getting data and feedback from people with hand, look at the people as oh, that's my data source visitations, right? And then going back to population Hills, everything that you do have to be deployable in underserved communities in us, outside of us meaning and you device any language, it could be text messaging. It has to work on off line. We developed, for example, three osh chatbots so it can run and then you devices in the ducts messaging. But it can accurately three ash people so it can escalate. So the advancing in natural language, processing your own networks and everything girls are there. So were you to somehow make it available to those countries and get the people. Those things exist now. Yeah, so But we have asked having all those solutions in countries we need it, but they not proud, heavily deploying it,

spk_3:   21:11
Doctor neither and said about the wrist portion places. So they when they think about smart text or health, they think about a Blockchain a 40 or five feet, and the country is phone. If infrastructure is not so, therefore whether to jean connection. So, uh, what do you know what? I think that for those less fortunate places, I think that's the kind of results problem. By starting with what they have, for example, X, they're only teach it to connection for three connection because the start Davidson with using, for example, script. If it works, we don't need a special application to make 10 minutes on it can build open that because in marketing for other hand solution, right now, everybody's saying we're doing a I know what you're learning. What are doing, look, change anywhere. He was a 14. Where is in this new dick? And it's in the works for months in Europe, in the off America. But then there's a war like in Africa South Asia. Uh, they can't implement that. There was a solution right now. So again, I think they should start using simple solutions. Me and built up a bond that until they they provided off the structure that can handle thistle. Think said that exists. So we didn't start with what we have on the dot Wait until we provide infrastructure to us. This wasn't taken here.

spk_1:   23:02
Yeah, they don't need to know I All those things product. Sizable. So it's what they need, You know, what's the point of having Skype? And every time I have problem, I need to skype the nurse. Or you said I mean so there are a text messaging. You know, I spent enough time in all the villages in Kenya and Tanzania, and I worked with, you know, Cisco and L Health Hobbs. And they all have smartphones. They'll have them. So if you have smart text messaging, so you know, they have a luxury off not developing those algorithms. You can be developed anywhere in their learning, and they don't need any hardware or anything to run them. You said I mean so, uh, so text messaging was simple, and the origins will be super useful for those people about the it's with the horror of it. So the robot, Why it's it's this combination. It's a triage, right? So when you you know how things work in the hills when you come to the hospital you made by the nurse nurse has pathway, right? You know what that is? So she she asked you all those questions based on your answers, all that It's programmable. Plus, you add, you know, a I based on your own yet from HR. So, what you doing? You making all that scale about? So you know, for that specific person. Maybe he needs to rest. Maybe it's a migraine. Maybe. There you go the emergency. But all those pathways have been built. Have been tested. If you had more intelligence, it becomes real helpful for people. So one

spk_2:   24:50
argument that people make here is that where's the human touch? You know, so clinicians on patients there needs to be more definition to patient face time in America. And I get invited to talk about this. His physician burner. I call it the healthcare boner. So because there is so much of technology that doctors have to spend a lot of time inputting the data onto the computer. Ah, that they don't have enough time to be with the patient in the traditional morning. Or how I say is it's because it's not being used in the proper way. And also the industry needs to focus on relieving the inclinations, making it easier to capture that data. So free up the doctor or the healthcare person so that they can have more time for the patient themselves and also technology. For example, artificial intelligence, not of people don't understand what is artificial. And even my colleagues, you know, were clinicians. They kind of share away from it because they think it is, That is, my machine is taking over the expertise off the, you know, physician, and they're scared to give away there. Fowler. All right. But if this message is a huge need to convey this message that artificial intelligence, if it is used in the proper way, is not taking away anyone's hierarchy or, you know, area of specialty, it is simply enabling them to free them up to to be ableto have more patient contact. Because I'm the old school of thought, that empathy on. You know your presence with the patient. Your connection with the patient is at the heart off. You being the healer. Ultimate healer is, you know, up there, But be being the facilitators for health for healing. Um, we need more time with our patients, and it's impossible. Now with the advancement off so many things that we need to do their protocols part raise. You have toe. You know, feedback to governments are what you've done, what you haven't done. And hence technology is there to him

spk_1:   27:09
what video will set in Just to add one of the statements I speak a lot about, You know, all those a I locked in everything on health care. Um, one of the statements I make is when people ask So what do you think? Well, a I replace physician is so my response always have been. Hey, I will not replace physicians. However, physicians who will not be using I row Billy place Yes. Very

spk_3:   27:45
well said, Just talk about a s O. That an implication that's tested. You notice for patients that turns. But you're here.

spk_1:   27:58
What a eyes. So so I I first of all a is many things straight on his machine, learning your threat. So we work with. You know, Hilton Human Service is we have the whole crew that analyzing hundreds of millions of danger so it can do the very different thing

spk_3:   28:23
is if I am a patient. Is that enough that I can message it with my symptoms and they can give me? All right, Agnes,

spk_1:   28:34
it's not about that. Well, three hours is not diagnosis Red. It helps you to find

spk_3:   28:40
that I am asking Lucas case. Which one? If I am a patient, is that enough that I, uh I checked, I takes my symptoms again, huh? In those meetings.

spk_1:   28:51
So the way the way I see it, and we have a physician in the room that there will be a whole bunch of data the obey algorithms that can look at all your date, your genetic, your family, your M R data lab date everything house, and it will come up with hypothesis on what this could be. It will also at the same time look at the people similar to your based on multiple factors. And then it will give a dashboard the physician. Here's 123 hypothesis based on everything that we know about people like you, your history and everything else. And position is the one who will determine what else needs to be done. That's for for foreseeable future. I think that's that's already been implemented.

spk_3:   29:46
Yeah, yeah, with you. Even if I will never trust to sleep in the work place.

spk_1:   29:57
I have driven in the sole driving car and I love it. And I can't wait for the time when there will be just self driving cars. This people are crazy. I don't think so, My friend, to

spk_2:   30:11
your question, does a eyes predict are given accurate diagnosis? So there are solutions of the more data there is, the more prediction accuracy of prediction. So you must have heard about, um, Microsoft. I think it is. Microsoft has a for ocular macular. Um, disease. There's a condition in the eye which, you know, they fed in so many examples data off different patients. Now that artificial intelligence led diagnostic resource can diagnose better of it. Better accuracy as clinician. So you know you that that is one example in radiology, especially this is working because x rays, you know, interpretation off a. Whether that is a small shadow. Is this cancer or not? They put in so many cases. And the machine, the algorithms with every different you know, um, variable data that that can predict with more accuracy as a group of clinicians, you see. But here is the point. This is not a MME. This is not the penultimate solution that the solution is that let's say I have to see 10,000 patients like I tell you, enter Jessie's one million patients every 36 hours, right? That is our scale of our our turnover. Let's say I've got to see 10,000 patients. There's a waiting list. Obviously my team is going to see not everyone the current model would be Everyone goes toe a doctor and the doctor will, you know, assess them and then they will be triaged and then so the expertise also varies. My expertise may not be 100% the same as yours. I have the same degree and you have the same degree. But there is variation while as the machine. If you put the machine an artificial intelligence as the first line, so the patients put in their data and it saves through with quite a big confidence of level. The ones that really need Toby taken forward. And then you get the experts to see them. So it is not just that you know that the machine is taking over the clinician it is. It is decided reliability. You can control the variability. So there's no very billet in the machine. They can be variability in humans. Yes, so that is same thing. A phone can be a bad thing or it can be a good thing. How you use it is the mean

spk_1:   32:49
Yeah, and expand on what you said What's cool that's coming up. And with reports, some of those auguries where you can predict things. So I end what we do. We analyze active and passive data and we include validation. Look in, for example. We know you have crying condition. You're a TTE home and you have a smart one. We can ask you so how you feel. At the same time, I can look at the things that you haven't explicitly under it. Like if every day I know you you walked by first straps like we can see from where and suddenly you're not doing those like I want to know what's in them would give the beautiful thing is people done toe Wait when it's like too late to go and get you know, when it's really bad so we can build and help people. You know what? I usually go and see dr or seriously way to communicate in predictive way. That's even better. So, keeping in female validation, my question would be four of you, Baron, Um, what challenges have you encountered in tackling around e health? And have you found unique solutions using I SETI's anyone who should we start with? Tatiana? Um, in general, I feel that, um, in every every angle of all our life, our data has been used with our concerned for the things they didn't concern. Okay, so I feel that, uh, we meet all keep other crimes. Never think else. If we enable people to have full control on the healthy, who can know what they can, Though they can revoke all the consent they can share with family member with caregiver with different providers, and they can trace who did what. So we deployed within the whole frame. Burke. It's not just in standard on middle are people don't eat, though, and you think it's very transparent. But they feel very confident and comfortable that they can share the most secure way. The data that they have to share Oh is, you know, whoever they want to share with. And I think that's, um um, that's an important step in enabling and empowering people. Thank you data and you.

spk_3:   35:33
So I would think the seafood, the CD communications. OK, that's well, uh, we have from the restroom is low people to communicate separate, platform about about life and learn more about their have conditions. So for hand first, it's not just a patient website when you make a sign up saying that a cz, the person or after professionals. So the idea is to make a platform where, uh, family members, patient's health enthusiasts and medical professionals are in the same place and indirectly on exchanging, exchanging their experience or a love them together in the same platform. So because the Indian threat from Pleasure Ways a separate forearms that is foreign for Doctors, for Nurses forum for patients without first room want to connect everyone because we believe that patients cannot from other patients, patients from doctors and diplo scandal from patients.

spk_1:   36:49
Thank you and Naina. So you asked her what

spk_2:   36:53
the challenges are. So my the biggest challenge is to engage the stakeholders in a collaboration, and so I might have a beautiful, very effective, efficient framework. For that, I can see can help, you know, a coordinated system which will help a particular community, especially here we are in the U. N. Setting. I'm looking at the developing world. The you know, where the hell's challenges are force more significant and with population, which is very stretched, you know, logistically. But unless their governments and policy makers are behind a project, you know, it cannot succeed. It will, you know, start up and within a few months, Dia, What we need to be focused on is that at the end of all, this is an individual, a person of suffering whose family suffering and the solution is there how to bring how do we make this solution toa sort? Their problem and the enablers are the policy makers, the governments of NGOs. The funding resource is because it needs funding with the U. N. Set up. You know what happens? What I understand is there is a funding which helps the certain projects to run. But after the funding is gone, the project also dies, and the first thing you can do with any particular um, area is to show them that they can be helped and then take it away from them.

spk_1:   38:39
So do you think that governments do enough to help how? Startups,

spk_2:   38:45
I think in these areas that we're talking about conflict, poverty are such a big issue and resources are spares. And also sometimes I feel having met many off the policy makers in the ministers and advisors ambassadors that sometimes, especially when it comes to health care, they don't understand exactly how they can be helped. They don't understand their own problem, so they may know that they have a big malaria crisis. But they may not know in the depth. Work is actually the issue, which is, you know, making this crisis even bigger. And what is the problem that is not helping facilitate the solutions to watch them and that's where the advisory role comes. You know, we need people with stakeholders with solutions which are very amendable, very flexible, because not one area will have the same solution as anywhere. Fells and people who understand both of clinical side as well as the technical side may be able to be in a position to help and creating a bespoke model. Ah, with tech support from the clinical world to help them in healthier.

spk_1:   40:03
I think you mentioned with developing countries. It's, um, much more company gave this. Ah, a lot of control is in government. So it's not like, you know, we convert Cho is different health care organizations and us, they don't need to go the minister of health, right In the smaller countries, basically nothing can be done. And unless you Burke with the government. So, um, I am willing toe work with the government who wants to go peak and air? That's important for them. Could be cardiovascular could be a something calls. And in a bow for pre no charge, just we build the framer Good. I can I can afford to do that, tasked on few villages to say there is a outcomes, but I I don't want to do anything that it's not title outcomes. So here I'm saving this beautiful building at United Nations that I am willing to do that just to see if our hypothesis is with on what might be helpful to those people in those villages that we can pass them. Weaken, pick 23 Villagers give different types off, sinks in. You know, when hopefully we know some of the data in justus us this until would do that with you hypothesis for ages on what they need. What? They don't need words with you. So here I am giving for free to run that as it Let's try a

spk_2:   41:52
Were you? I'll connect you with some people, master you.

spk_3:   42:01
I would propose bonus for

spk_1:   42:05
especially if it's free. And so how do you feel looking to the future? How do you feel? I see t so going to shape the field for anyhow, maybe the next 10. Yes,

spk_2:   42:18
my friend. Um, what I understood very quickly was that in a destructive technologies means things that come in so they're destructive technology and their sustainable technologies sustainable is that whatever technology is already there, you improve on it and it goes, you know, like your simple example is your mobile phone version 1234 And it's the same technology disruptive is when the technology comes and it just pushes away what was already there. For example, I give the example of in my grandmother's time the gramophone, you know, with a big, big horn. We still have one as an archive. Then you you had the cassettes, then you had the CD players. Then you have your iPods, whatever. Yeah, these air. So this disruptive technology meant that the previous one was chuck into the attic and the new one came in. So we are talking about E e learning. We don't know that in the next 10 years, whether it's going to be a learning or it's going to be something else, All right, so it's very important to keep your eyes open and your what you call, you know, outlook open toe, the new things that are coming and seeing that how will they help you to answer the problem that you have and being very flexible and adopting adapting them, or you can adopt, adapt and adopt after you've understood them? Thank you,

spk_1:   43:51
Noah. Are you?

spk_3:   43:55
I'm its sword with division dears 10 years. But the I think the internet of things will have a huge impact if elected, especially sensations with the ships, if it can be implemented in the skin off humans. So what are the things going on that could have got to think?

spk_1:   44:23
Okay, so here's my view. If I'm looking at technology Thrones, such has on the comm activity five G computing power chip. Um, we have, um Oh, God. He's been, you know, development on you, eh? I models and having access to consolidated integrated, massive amounts of data related to health care. So in a while, well, I think it will be a There are a lot of predictive stuff focused on wellness, so the healthier eventually will finally become health care versus seek care. This week, we're going that way, right? And all of those technologies will enable us to use specialists of the time we need it. And you were in the globe virtual surgeries. They happening now if you know right now, it's so like difficulty like you need to see an expertise you go and find. But with all the infrastructure of the computing power, all the connectivity, we will be able, though opening up and we will remove all those disparity is that people don't have access to physicians were held or anything else. It's happening, you know. We go, you know, extra ratings machine does it, but it's, you know, done. They are, will sleep and then the meaning that it's we see it happening. But with all those new technologists, I think it will be fascinating. Thank

spk_2:   46:13
you, thank you. And I were just one last thing that the rules will be very different. As you see already. You know, what the nurses used to do is not what they do now. The doctors, what they used to do is not totally what they do now. So the rules will be very different. I've actually proposed at Imperial College, and it's happening. They're going to a curriculum review that for the medical course we should have, um you know, the informatics section with medical students are taught as an undergraduate at a law graduate level. You know what informatics is and the technology side of things, so that because they are going to be practicing using these things, if you make them as expert clinicians and they don't know, and then in the first year and they're thrown into the clinical setting and they're struggling. Toe. Find out how things are done. It's not fair of them. So during the medical course to include this, in fact, I've been invited to be on the board of governors on the Medic New Medical College. It is opening in ST Lucia, affiliated with American universities, that they want, um, need to advise them on artificial intelligence to be incorporated in their curriculums. Obey. I think I like Neto and tell it and educate them. It's not just artificial intelligence. It's in

spk_3:   47:29
storm endings. Yes, my field in the future is the dependency all bullshit. So even though doctors without the Russians can can't operate as old doctors, you know what I mean. Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of After years. Yeah, it's already there will be able to operate if there's nobody.

spk_1:   47:54
Well, you look at the planes, right? So you know they fly automatically, right? But when the A trained pilot, they know how to switch to manual and fly them of anything, so it's a matter of like, Okay, we can still progress. Things will be happening. And then how you kind of come up with their backup process of the core

spk_2:   48:15
skills need to be there. And the classic example is and, you know, emphasizes during my teaching off medical students that ah ah, my mother was a gynecologist. Obstetrician. So I'm in my childhood. I'm in Pakistan. You could do those things. Not in UK. I used to go and sit in her clinics. Um and, um you know, uh, just help out during the holidays. And I saw her in her clinic. Ah, that with her hand, she could diagnose. Okay, it's a breech pregnancy. It's, ah, you know, vortex. That means the right way the head is of the fetus is facing the right way or not. Now we've become so with the advent of Aldo, so the clinicians have become so dependent that their hand skills are lost. You know that at the minute they have a patient who comes in and they're not sure whether it is the breach or ah, no Catholic presentation. Where's the scanner? And they put a scanner and they don't feel confident enough tow. Give a prediction. So how I teach is that to say, you know, normal scanner, You tell me what you feel to the hand skills. Are there you can confirm it later on. But first, commit yourself so, you know, commit yourself so you don't lose the hand skills.

spk_1:   49:30
Yeah, that's that's what we're talking about training you still this if people don't understand fundamentals like how to look, and I look normal way.

spk_2:   49:42
But in all honesty it I don't blame them either, because we're living in a world off litigation. In my mother's time, maybe, you know, people used to say, There's got up there and there's the clinician down there you are. You need to help us with the illness on Dhe The doctor was not scared that there's a lawyer behind who's just about to sue me. So that's why this has come, unfortunately from America, because the the joke was that the clinician does award run, and then the lawyer does the wardrobe. You know, the litigation is so much so

spk_1:   50:15
they have to at least do balls. Yeah, well, Yankee nine and thank all three of you. So much for coming on. The show today is being a really interesting talk. We could talk about this for our Hey, we don't have a podcast long enough. I just like to end on the note that whilst advancement in the healthcare so vast is what's most important is what we do with this technology.

spk_2:   50:37
Exactly. That s o at the end of it is the patient is an individual. It's a human being. We're here simply to be able to help each other, to make sure that the person that needs our help is looked after in the best possible way. And there's no discrepancy whether they are in Africa. They are in some posh hospital in the western world. Thank you.

spk_1:   51:01
Thank you. Thank you. And to all our listeners for listening today, make sure you check out the rest of

spk_3:   51:05
the wishes talks podcast.